How come Somaliland is not allowed to be an independent country but South Sudan is ?

[GIJaamac]

Because the world doesn't want another conflict ridden poor african land to become a sovereign country. Somaliland has nothing to offer for world super powers. Their land has no signigicant natural resources and their human capital is extremely low. I mean if Somaliland were given a recognition there would be a civil war betweeen isaaq and daarood in Sool and Sanaag. And perhaps betweeen isaaq sub-clans too because of billions of aid money. I can't see a scenario where Somaliland could become a successful developed country. Lamagoodles are too primitive and too self destructive to create one. The current state is the best for Somaliland apart from coming back to unity.

Somaliland hasn't had a war for over 25 years why on earth would it have one in the future. It didn't had a war in the most contested elecions in 2017. What makes u think it will fight over petty stuff Somaliland isn't Somalia. Where people fight over the most meaningless thing.

Because you guys are broke at the moment and have common enemy (Somalia). Take those 2 out and the outcome will be a civil war. Plus lamagoodles can't build a successful nation. It's not in your dna. 68 IQ you know.

[Khalid Ali]

Who the hell and what is lamagoodle.

[ReturnOfMariixmaan]

Who the hell and what is lamagoodle.

[Gubbet]

Well that's a difficult one really he has a parent from Somaliland but that doesn't make him necessarily a somalilander. How ever you could make that argument that he choose Somalia instead of Somaliland. And that removes him from his Somaliland status.

Your second question I didn't quiet get it. Is it tribe about isaaq as a qabil and that they share different haplogroups. But what does that have to do with Somaliland as a nation every isaaq subclan is a seperate clan with in Somaliland wax dusha iska saaran maleh. Obviously during the 13 century there were allot of adoption of clans and people's the sheikh isxaaaq children 8 sons and their allies mostly people who. Lived in mait and xiis. And even other Yemeni saints wa lugu daray. To form the bigger ishaaq nation.

So you are more in group 1... You don't believe in a tribal realism concept and nor do you believe blood is all determining to begjn with.

You believe in a controlled form of jus sanguinas apparently, but conditioned on a aspect of soil preference or declaration.

Basically Farmaajo citizenship ís not denied to you because it js not a problem that YOU aren't Isaaq (or Dhulbahante or Gudabiirsk), since you carry the samr blood in your maternal side, however blood is only 1 part of the requirement; you you have to be born and declare preference for the soil that is this nation

Interesting.

The other question is not asking about how or why that happened, I am not stupid or dishonest lol. I understand the theory of clan formation.

I am asking what if it HAPPENS TOMORROW thereby changing an understanding of what "blood" is in thr expression of natural born.

Say, some group now in Bay for example reaches a mutual Xeer reconfiguration with a SOMALILAND clan...is this southern, non-British Somaliland constiuent territory member all of a sudden a SOMALILAND people based on a new Xeer configuration connecting them to a clan in Somaliland now.

Basically where, if any, is the limit between State/territory and Clan membership.

If that group is now a SOMALILAND people because they are part of Isaaq with no history, connection, or experience to British Somaliland timeframe then why would HARTI, MAREHAN, OR OGADEN not then similarly be eligible for Somaliland citizenship since Darod is a Clan constituent member of British Somaliland.

[skywalker25]

Well that's a difficult one really he has a parent from Somaliland but that doesn't make him necessarily a somalilander. How ever you could make that argument that he choose Somalia instead of Somaliland. And that removes him from his Somaliland status.

Your second question I didn't quiet get it. Is it tribe about isaaq as a qabil and that they share different haplogroups. But what does that have to do with Somaliland as a nation every isaaq subclan is a seperate clan with in Somaliland wax dusha iska saaran maleh. Obviously during the 13 century there were allot of adoption of clans and people's the sheikh isxaaaq children 8 sons and their allies mostly people who. Lived in mait and xiis. And even other Yemeni saints wa lugu daray. To form the bigger ishaaq nation.

So you are more in group 1... You don't believe in a tribal realism concept and nor do you believe blood is all determining to begjn with.

You believe in a controlled form of jus sanguinas apparently, but conditioned on a aspect of soil preference or declaration.

Basically Farmaajo citizenship ís not denied to you because it js not a problem that YOU aren't Isaaq (or Dhulbahante or Gudabiirsk), since you carry the samr blood in your maternal side, however blood is only 1 part of the requirement; you you have to be born and declare preference for the soil that is this nation

Interesting.

The other question is not asking about how or why that happened, I am not stupid or dishonest lol. I understand the theory of clan formation.

I am asking what if it HAPPENS TOMORROW thereby changing an understanding of what "blood" is in thr expression of natural born.

Say, some group now in Bay for example reaches a mutual Xeer reconfiguration with a SOMALILAND clan...is this southern, non-British Somaliland constiuent territory member all of a sudden a SOMALILAND people based on a new Xeer configuration connecting them to a clan in Somaliland now.

Basically where, if any, is the limit between State/territory and Clan membership.

If that group is now a SOMALILAND people because they are part of Isaaq with no history, connection, or experience to British Somaliland timeframe then why would HARTI, MAREHAN, OR OGADEN not then similarly be eligible for Somaliland citizenship since Darod is a Clan constituent member of British Somaliland.

Currently one can be resident of Kenya or even have a Kenyan passport but at the same time have a Somali passport. Same for those residing in Ethiopia.

Similarly, one can be from Somalia/Ethiopia/Djabouti/ Kenya but have a Somaliland passport, based on mother being from Somaliland or even being born in Somaliland*. The most important aspect of it all is ensuring and believing in Somaliland's well being above all else. Farmaajo would fail in this capacity as his vehemently opposed to the full aspirations of Somaliland.

[ReturnOfMariixmaan]

It’s been 30yrs. They won’t be a country.

[SunFromNorth]

The idoors are stupid motherfuckers they keep talking about the Walaweyn, how can he be the one stopping your itraaf when his own sister gets fucked every night in the ass by Amisom ?

[Nomand]

Djibouti fears port competition a strong somaliland next to do them obviously scares them.. Kenyans are actually the most pro somaliland all the Kenyans i met in hargeisa are pro Somaliland and support our unique case in the African continent. Somaliland need recognition to trade it makes it smoother to get better deals when you are sovreign states. If we had recognition do u think we would be abused by Saudi prices for our livestock. We would make atleast 3 billion dollars a year form it instead of 2 now. We also have gold gemstones other minerals and even oil. Our economy has allot of potenial. Combined with our new port which is due to open in 2 months.

That's the average kenyan joe, we are talking about Kenyan government. They are against somaliland independence

Raila odinga and his party has openly called for Somaliland recognition he even held a speech at the Chatham House in England london. On the issue this is the former prime minister if he had won the elections he would have recognised somaliland. Railas father was very good friends with his excellency former president of somaliland maxammad xaji Ibrahim cigaal. As for Kenya as it stands today. There are warms relations president bixi visited Nairobi state visit. Held talks with uhurro kenyatta Kenya will open a diplomatic office in somaliland I think they already did l. And from there they will strengthen ties. In allot of key sectors education trade aviation. This is very significant.

Campaign promises are different to actual policy once you assume office.

Kenya makes to much money from walaweyn mayhem. They would loose a lot of that that to somaliland if somaliland is recognised.

Accept the truth no one wants to see an independent somaliland. Status qou suits Djibouti, Kenya and ethiopia. NGO also make a killing using our name and want the status qou to continue.

Khalid Ali what will you do if another 30 years pass and your not recognised?

[Khalid Ali]

Nomand that is not true Kenya loses nothing. If it recognises somaliland. It isn't campaign issues raila and his party have always been supporters of sl. Same as the ukip party in england. Kenya would gain a real ally from Somaliland. How would Kenya loose money if Somaliland is recognised. If Somaliland is recognised do u think wartorn Somalia will suddenly become an oases of peace. Nothing will really change. Nomand I don't care if Somaliland is recognised or not. If Somaliland is recognised its something we should work towards to. What I find more important is that we are independent and independence we have aslong as we stick to our guns no one can take that reverse that. This is the issue and important for us If Somaliland is not recognised in the next 100 years it will not change my stance or ideology. Our ideology is freedom sovreigty and to have our own country by any means necessary. Anything less then that is a defeat and a no go zone.

[Khalid Ali]

Well that's a difficult one really he has a parent from Somaliland but that doesn't make him necessarily a somalilander. How ever you could make that argument that he choose Somalia instead of Somaliland. And that removes him from his Somaliland status.

Your second question I didn't quiet get it. Is it tribe about isaaq as a qabil and that they share different haplogroups. But what does that have to do with Somaliland as a nation every isaaq subclan is a seperate clan with in Somaliland wax dusha iska saaran maleh. Obviously during the 13 century there were allot of adoption of clans and people's the sheikh isxaaaq children 8 sons and their allies mostly people who. Lived in mait and xiis. And even other Yemeni saints wa lugu daray. To form the bigger ishaaq nation.

So you are more in group 1... You don't believe in a tribal realism concept and nor do you believe blood is all determining to begjn with.

You believe in a controlled form of jus sanguinas apparently, but conditioned on a aspect of soil preference or declaration.

Basically Farmaajo citizenship ís not denied to you because it js not a problem that YOU aren't Isaaq (or Dhulbahante or Gudabiirsk), since you carry the samr blood in your maternal side, however blood is only 1 part of the requirement; you you have to be born and declare preference for the soil that is this nation

Interesting.

The other question is not asking about how or why that happened, I am not stupid or dishonest lol. I understand the theory of clan formation.

I am asking what if it HAPPENS TOMORROW thereby changing an understanding of what "blood" is in thr expression of natural born.

Say, some group now in Bay for example reaches a mutual Xeer reconfiguration with a SOMALILAND clan...is this southern, non-British Somaliland constiuent territory member all of a sudden a SOMALILAND people based on a new Xeer configuration connecting them to a clan in Somaliland now.

Basically where, if any, is the limit between State/territory and Clan membership.

If that group is now a SOMALILAND people because they are part of Isaaq with no history, connection, or experience to British Somaliland timeframe then why would HARTI, MAREHAN, OR OGADEN not then similarly be eligible for Somaliland citizenship since Darod is a Clan constituent member of British Somaliland.

Clan formations all ready happend centuries ago I don't think the structure and genealogies and tribal identity will change suddenly. They might evolve and new clans will be in the making due to time and social interaction like akiche they would one day maybe become a somaliland clan. As it now stands only dhulbahante warsangali gadabuursi the isaaq clans the issa clans. Are automatically Somalilanders due to clan ancestry from Somaliland. To make it simple your analogy could never work because isxaaaq people do not live in Somalia ever they live in the other 4 parts of somali weyn Kenya Djibouti Ethiopia and Somaliland.

[Gubbet]

Sxb, I was on this forum when Habar Yoonis and Damal Muuse saw development of a Xeer configuration.

Let me just say this. Configuration of Xeer Agreement DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN "New" or "adoption" or whatever.

It just means a change was noted.

It happens all the time. Majeerteen and Gaalgale, Habar Gidir and Fiqi Shinni, Dir and Gurguure/Gariire, etc etc etc.

A clan that I think Marehan is eligible for a new Xeer configuration AT ANY MOMENT---literally where I would not be surprised by its development if it happened now---is reer Guuleed Faarax strongly, if quietly, contested by Marehan in Murursade.

Now I am not you with your understanding of your clan, but I know even in your own lower segmentation of Makaahiil xataa of Sacad Muuse there exists a branch in Gaaljecel, I believe, that would not surprise if y'all developed a new Xeer configuration which changes our understanding of your relationship

A new Xeer configuration can be initiated by "WAA KALA DHUNAY, ILAAHAY BAA HADA ISKU KAAYO KEENAY"

Basically this exists as a theory in every group because it is a feature of evem5 being part of Somali clan system.

Now let me repeat

1. Say that group in Gaaljecel and Makaahiil/Sacad Muuse saw this configuration
2. And that group has no history , experience, or prrsence in the existence of British Somaliland (which is the official and legally defining concept of SOMALILAND territorially and it's constituent membership)
3. On the basis of thr configuration, because they are now Isaaq, does that make them Somaliland people (either with the eligibility or natural born)

4. If so, at no point during British Somaliland existence or since declaration of independence, has there been any LEGALLY defining or encoded definition of Somaliland as the "Homeland" of any social group. There has only been the Legally binding interpretation that Somalilanders naturally are the groups that were directly PRESENT and recognized as such by the entity of British Somaliland.

5. Essentially if (forget even Marehan or Ogaden) MAJEERTEEN who are even Harti of the Koome Kablalax of the Kablalax Daarod are not eligible for recognition as Somaliland people,

6. Then how can that newly recognized Isaaq group be eligible for Somaliland peoplehood when they are even les applicable territorially, historically or otherwise to the existence of British Somaliland which is thr foundation for Somaliland statehood?

Basically if Majeerteen who is agnatically to Dhulbahante and even Warsangeli what Sacad Muuse is to Ciise Muuse ------(agnatically Habar Jeclo to Habar Awal is like Sade to Kablalax, they only come together at foundation)----is not allowed Somaliland recognjtion because they weren't a part of British Somaliland, then to everyone else BUT Habar Awal, why should your group be accepted as a Somaliland people WHEN they are LESS agnatically related to the new group and whoever is in it than Dhulbahante is to Majeerteen.

So basically if the new group is in because they are Habar Awal, Majeerteen and Dhulbahante waa Harti.

You can evem make the argument, if the new group is in, whu not Marehan or Ogaden. The new group is agnatically no more closer to any other group , even other Isaaq, than MRX and OG are to Dhulbahante as Darod.

To a Gudabiirsi, the new group is less retated agnatically to even all the other Isaaq groups (to a Habar Yoonis, a Habar Jeclo, who they meet at Isaaq rtc) than MJ and Dhulbahante are related as (Harti of Koombe Kablalax of Kablalax Darood of Daarood).

The "only" way that new group would then be a Somaliland people when Majeerteen is inelligible is IF THERE WAS A LEGALLY BINDING UNDERSTANDING THAT SOMALILAND IS IN FACT NOT INFORMED LEGALLY BY BRITISH SOMALILAND EXISTENCE AND CHARACTER BUT REALLY IS A HOMELAND WITH A PRIVILEGED ENTITY.

Do you understand how complex law, statehood, and citizenship is now?

The moment that legal interpretation is adapted, it means there is two systems based on one's tribe. It is what even Israeli fights hsrder than anything elsre WHILE getting away with an approximation that even still is recognized by no one else "Israel has a Jewish character but is Democretic"

I brought ip this point because you have never thought about it. You just casually assume every Isaaq is a Somalilander.

Sure, because that's informed by a technicalty (all in one location present assumption) that allows ignoring one of the most complex and probable ways capable of delegrtimizing the enfire prohect legally now and even if it camr into International recognition.ç

1. Thr new Isaaq group is either not eligible for Sland natural born designation or even qualifies as aa group for citizenship, which brings thr issue of the Isaaq on the other side of the Ethiopian border to the forefront ad there would then be a legally drfinitio5 separation between what is SOMALILAND and what is Isaaq

Or
2. The new group is eligible because membership in Isaaq is a privileged class while Majeerteen is not eligible although they are agnatically closer to Dhulbahante than the new group is to every other original signstory of British Somaliland treaties---which is basically Apartheid and abrogation of thr entire basis of what legally defines the very form of Somaliland (why Hargeisa can even lay claim to Laas Caanood, rtc)

This is all too complex and I am sure there is better ways tl explain, but I think you understand the basis of my question now

[Khalid Ali]

I see what you did there voltage. You want to accuse Somaliland of a racist apartheid state that deals with tribalism and exclusivity for one clan and denies it for another. I will respond to you shortly.

[Gubbet]

Also, Skywalker, HUGE, HUGE, HUGE point taken for granted

Somalia does not RESTRICT eligibility for citizenship.

Even, the reference to Somali ethnicity (wherever they live blah) is NOT a "privilege"-----it is an EXPANSION.

So basically, these are the eligibility requirements, and furthermore if you check these points, you FURTHER qualify for this expanded eligibility.

Somalia DOES NOT HAVE "limiting" clauses.

It doesn't say only Somalis are eligible or only Italian Somaliland heritage or only Cushitic or only the "Mushunguli and Shiidle" of the Bantu races, etc etc etc.

"Conversely" Somaliland's ENTIRE CONCEPTION of citizenship is based on a "limiting" specification interpreted in opposition to what is Somalia (i.r general Somali people).

Do you understand?

Say you are a TEACHER and in sating arrangements

1. There are enough seats for EVERYONE
   • The front row has a preference for people with poor eye sight
     • This is an expansion of the general rules governing seating for people who qualify
2. There are ONLY chairs on the first row
   • Only people with poor eyesight can have a seat (and any subsequent poor eyesight person will receive a seat two with someone standing in row 2 moving back)
     • This is a privilege at the exclusion of general eligibility
   Somalia citizenship is the first; there is general eligibility and a expansion if you qualify
   
   Somaliland is actually the opposite, there is very limited eligibility (the right clan) with narrowing qualification (present at the right time)
   
   The issue that I pointed with Isaaq as a clan example js where there is possibility of dangerous development of privilege at the exclusion of the general eligibility of of those who already got by the narrow limitation.
   
   That's basically Apartheid level or Jim Crow America

[Gubbet]

I see what you did there voltage. You want to accuse Somaliland of a racist apartheid state that deals with tribalism and exclusivity for one clan and denies it for another. I will respond to you shortly.

Good, I look forward to it because your statement tells me the sense of legal danger in such a situation was clearly expressed by me.

And please, DO NOT waste time with arguing how much the xeer configuration cannot happen. Pretend if you have to even, that it can.

Otherwise there is no point in responding in all fairness.

Address the merits of such a very real and possibly eventuality.

[original dervish]

There is no way this guy has a job......or even a life outside of snet.